Sunday, March 2, 2014
Weeks 4-6
1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleidentifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
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In the past I've read the supposedly older version of the Loathly Lady in King Arthur's court. The lady here is portrayed as being hideous to look upon, frightening even, but she is not portrayed as a sexual predator- although, it was in a children's book, so I doubt it would be seen that way- instead she is sweet and caring, but misunderstood and terribly aware of how frightful she seemed to people, only Queen Guinevere seems to show her some kindness. Her husband in the story is not a rapist as is in Chaucer's tale, and does not seem selfish, though he is repulsed by her looks. Unlike Chaucer's tale Sir Gawain, her named husband in the earlier version, selflessly volunteers to marry her as payment for saving the life of King Arthur. This is a sharp contrast to Chaucer's tale as the unnamed knight had raped a girl and could only be spared if he answered the question, "What do women most desire?" In both versions of the tale the answer is elusive as most persons have very different ideas of what women would want. In the end a hideous hag provides an answer which no woman could disagree with, and the life of King Arthur- in the older version- or the unnamed knight in Chaucer's tale is spared. However, as payment the loathly lady demands marriage to a knight, and Sir Gawain in the older version selflessly volunteers, although he is initially repulsed, or the unnamed knight reluctantly marries her. In both versions, on their wedding knight the bride reveals herself able to change her shape, if her husband could answer a question for her. In Chaucer's version, the question is that would her husband rather her be old and ugly but faithful and a good wife, or would her rather her be beautiful, but seductive and alluring to every man she meets. In the older version, she reveals herself in her beautiful form to Sir Gawain and asks him if would rather have her like as such during the day or night. In both versions the husband asked her what would she like, and she remains young, beautiful and faithful to him. In both cases the husband is placed under an impossible situation and decides to bend to whatever his wife wishes, which is exactly what she wants to hear, so she gives him everything he wants.
ReplyDeleteSome solid, careful thinking here, Nadya. Well done. Now you need to be able to integrate your reading of commentaries with your ideas.
DeleteIt is interesting, Chaucer is penned as a supporter of feminism, before feminism actually began. It is easy to think why. I noted that in both versions of the tale- not just by Chaucer though, the question seems to be posed to men. Not women. And in both tales the men all have different answers. In the end it is a female who manages to provide him with a suitable answer, that no women, "virgin, wife or widow" can disagree with. It was a question that asked what women most desired. Although to be fair, all women are different, just as no two men are completely alike, but the question seems to be posed only to men, something which may reflect on what Chaucer and the unnamed author of the earlier tale may think of about men claiming to have dominance knowledge and control over women without really knowing or understanding them. Therefore, they could not possibly be masters over women. Only a woman could have given such an answer. Also in Chaucer's tale, the unnamed knight is about to be punished for the rape and mistreatment pf a young virgin maid. In the medieval world this would not have been anything unusual, as women, of lower birth or noble blood, were constantly mistreated, and men often went unpunished and were often arrogant or proud of what they had done. This may have outraged Chaucer's sensibilities, as in King Arthur and Queen Guinevere's utopian-like Britain, he believed would have never let such a thing go unpunished, therefore, if the knight could not lose his life, her must surely be humbled by women as payment for his crime. So yes, Chaucer may have well been an advocate of women mistreated by men.
ReplyDeleteAgain thoughtful but gets a little lost in the logic where some research would have helped - the value of expert opinion
ReplyDeleteIf Chaucer is a supporter of feminism then in what way and how so? Drawing attention to how the knight is characterized does not mean Chaucer is a supporter of feminism. If he was a supporter of feminism he would not use the term sovereignty- full authority over because that's not what women desire. Women desire equality not sovereignty, therefore, the cross-culture dimension is not really set. what do you think?
ReplyDeleteHofstede, G. (2012). Dimensionalizing cultures: the Hofstede model in context. In L. Samovar, R.E. Porter & E.R. McDaniel (Eds.), Intercultural communication: A reader (pp.19 - 36). Boston, MA: Wadsworth Cengage Learning.
ReplyDelete2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree?
ReplyDeleteTo state the obvious, Chaucer's tale tests the knowledge men have of women generally and also exposes the ability women obtain to gain sovereignty. Lets look at the end of the story where the witch gives the knight one last wish and notice how the gender roles switch.
-The knight, a solider who holds authority in armour, and
-The witch- an ugly or unpleasant old women that is thought to have evil magical powers.
In the middle ages, no mater the power witches had in possession, authority still reigned over experience. This is a resemblance of masculinity. Men do not desire to be second hand or second in line gender wise but to hold the upper hand and to rule over women no matter the experience. I believe the knights character perfectly shaped the role of men. For women, on the other hand, only hold a desire for the upper hand but do not have the means to attain the role. The witches character, also, shapes the mind set women attain. Women want to be excepted for who they are and also be recognized for the wisdom and knowledge they posses. Women have the ability to do so much more than men however, they lack opportunity to expose this. Chaucer chose to show this through the end in which the witch gave the knight a choice and by submitting to his wife and letting her be master clearly shows that once women are given the opportunity, they have the power to do anything and everything and settle controversy. "... A happy match is one in which the wife has control," a statement from the wife of Bath justifies the proposal of women and sovereignty as an item. However, from another perspective, women do not desire sovereignty but equality. In saying that, is the cure to man's pride a distribution of power? or could it be complete submission? Since, eventually, women will hold the upper hand.
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/c/the-canterbury-tales/summary-and-analysis/the-wife-of-baths-prologue-and-tale
http://www.gradesaver.com/the-canterbury-tales/study-guide/section7/
Carter's statement "...Chaucer’s foregrounding of gender exploits the shape shifting loathly lady motif as a vehicle for examining the sphere of heterosexual power
ReplyDeletecontestation." could justify Chaucer's position as an explorer and not a feminist. This exposes his interest in the controversy between the dimensions, although critics play tug of war with his "perspective," debunking the issue and reaching the core would put all critics to rest. The power that rests between the dimensions cannot be claimed by one because both sides have their own strengths. Women who are wise will eventually claim the upper hand whereas men, although they submit in ways to women, in the end they will receive what they want. You see this example in the last scene where the knight is granted both his desires but, by the witch(female). It seems as if everything is lead back to women-authority/power etc.
I don't think Chaucer was a feminist. There is nothing in The Wife of Bath's Tale that can be taken too seriously.
ReplyDeleteWell if you think about it, the questions and thoughts we attain emerge from critics' theories of analysis of the story.
DeleteHahn(1995) suggests that the narrative unfolds in ways that have the heroine obviously serve the interests of the male chivalric society that the poem good-humoredly celebrates. Based on this conclusion, I suppose Hahn’s perspective regarding the assertion the feminine is that it assists displaying the masculine in chivalric society, which I think is true. Although the conclusion is drawn from the Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle, as one example of loathly lady fabula, it embraces basically the same notion as other stories with plots of loathly lady.
ReplyDeleteAlteration in story over time does add more sense of femininity to the story. According to Hahn(1995), in the Old Irish versions, the reward for the hero’s offering his favor or making the right choice is kingship or political dominance; the late medieval English versions recast the tales’ setting from the realm of epic exploits to a domestic environment of personal love characteristic of romance. However, this change does not mean highlighting feminism throughout the story.
As what has been discussed in class, feminism emphasizes equality between both genders while sovereignty symbolizes power-over. These two concepts brought out along the discussion actually help differing the point of emphasis. Take a look at the wife of bath, and it will be obvious that the character virgin is far abandoned before the choice is thrown on knight. If the story means to emphasize feminism, What is equality for the virgin after being raped and all? Also why does the witch throw all the possibilities onto the knight and let him decide without any subjective needs from herself? Although I agree in the story, respect for women represents feminine points of view. Nevertheless, neither the wife of bath nor Ragnelle is feminism-themed over masulism-themed, especially in the chivalric society.
I am not sure about if loathly lady fabula is related with the position change of women in literature renaissance due to my lack of knowledge regarding literature history, however, based on what I have read regarding the competition between men and women during the renaissance, it slightly reflects that equality in terms of sex was hardly taken by the whole poetry area. According to Revard(1997), men’s view of “learned; women usually involves men’s views if women in general, and assessment of her literary achievement cannot take place without considering the acceptability of her competing “equally” in the domain of poetic performance, which is referred as exclusively male.
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ReplyDelete2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was read ‘The Wife of Bath`s Tale’, I confused about that Chaucer is a feminist or not. Because, here is an example about my confusing “what thing it is that women most desire?” (Literature and Desire course material, 2006, p. 66). I think that this question`s meaning includes in female chauvinism, because a representative key person is woman. Also, another example is here. The answer of that question may show the female chauvinism, too. “Women desire to have sovereignty. As well over her husband as her love, And to be in mastery above him” (Literature and Desire course material, 2006, p. 68). In addition, the knight has no choice. If he wants to live more, he must find out the question`s answer somehow. Thus, when he meet the old woman who know the answer, he obediently obeys the old woman`s proposition. These reasons confused me Chaucer maybe a feminist.
However, I decide that Chaucer is not a feminist. Those reasons can make people thinking that Chaucer is feminist. But I think that these reasons cannot definite prove about the he is a feminist. Here are some reasons why I think he is not a feminist. One is that, in the 14TH century, the men`s right and power are strong era, medieval period. It means that there is a King and he gave the power to queen to judge the knight and the people. That is, the women of that period had just limited right of choices to do something. It shows that times males have authorities. The other reason is that I think Chaucer wishes men knowing the women`s heart well, so he intentionally made the story of ‘The Wife of Bath`s Tale’ which looks like he is a feminist; he may seem like a little bit perspective of feminism in his work. That is, actually, Chaucer just wants to tell men what women need. Therefore, I think he is not a feminist. I think Chaucer has a good idea and foresight with wisdom.
References
Literature and Desire course material. (2006, July). The Wife of Bath's Tale. Critical Reader 2014. Auckland University of Technology, New Zealand.
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
ReplyDeleteConceit generally has multiple meanings such as ‘excessive pride in oneself’, ‘an ingenious’, ‘fanciful comparison or metaphor’. The term conceit is generally understood to mean a fanciful comparison, special metaphor or simile (About.com, 2014). That is, usually the using of conceits is a literary and rhetorical term or particularly fanciful figurative device. The word "conceits" is used as a way to express puns and deeper meanings within the poems. Conceits can give deeper thinking to reader, because it is not literally meaning. Therefore, when readers find a figure of speech, conceits, in the text, they may surprise and delight. However, sometimes it can make readers to perplex and annoy. Conceits were often used by Elizabethan and Jacobean poets to describe the depth and purity of their love, lust, desire and romance. I found that there are many examples of “conceits” in the Literature and Desire course material. “My lover is like to ice, and I to fire”, “My mistress` eyes are nothing like the sun”. I think John Donne’s “The Flea” is the also good example. The poem fills with a creative imagination. Flea bites the man and woman, and then the man thinks that the man and woman became one. In “The Flea”, flea is meaning that one is flea; the other meaning is sexual union, man and woman. It can make witty and humor in the poem (Literature and Desire course material, 2014).
References
About.com. (2014). Conceit. Retrieved May 3, 2014, from http://grammar.about.com/od/c/g/Conceit-term.htm
Literature and Desire course material. 2014. Weeks 4-6 b: Language of Seduction II. Auckland University of Technology, New Zealand.